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An Interview with

Father Arnaud Rostand

SSPX District Superior of the U.S.

 

By Michael J. Matt

Editor, The Remnant

 

(The following interview appeared in the March 15, 2010 issue of The Remnant,

and was conducted some time before this latest media assault against the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI)

1) Michael J. Matt: Thank you for taking the time to answer a few questions today.  It has been almost a year since you were appointed US District Superior of the Society of Saint Pius X. How are things progressing for the Society here in the United States?     

Father Rostand: Indeed, it has been about a year and a half. In August of 2008, Bishop Fellay, the General Superior of the Society of Saint Pius X, appointed me as Superior of the District of the United States. Beforehand, I was in Canada and therefore already pretty familiar with the U.S. District, as I had visited quite a few places here during previous years, never thinking I would be assigned District Superior.

What has always impressed me about the U.S. District of the Society of Saint Pius X, is its youth and growth. The number of children, the many large families, always impressed me. Just by visiting a few of our chapels here, what strikes newcomers is the many children; it is beautiful. It is so refreshing in today’s world. I can see this not only at our larger chapels, priories and schools but nearly everywhere in almost all of our chapels throughout this District, even the most remote.

So, “are things progressing for the Society of Saint Pius X?” Yes, absolutely. The number of faithful in the chapels is increasing, the Society now numbers 77 priests in this District, about 80 seminarians are studying for the priesthood, 13 new priests were ordained at Winona last year, and 11 should be in June 2010. To give an idea of the growth, Saint Mary's had over a hundred baptisms last year, The Immaculate Conception church in Post-Falls around seventy-five.

2) MJM: And what impact has the Holy Father’s landmark motu proprio Summorum Pontificum had on the SSPX?

Father Rostand: The motu proprio Summorum Pontificum, as well as the lifting of the “excommunications”, has stimulated an undeniable growth. I would say, it brought a real growth in attendance, new people have started to come for mass at our chapels. It seems that, over all, many feel more comfortable, and the growth will surely continue. However, what we notice even more is a great increase in attention to the Traditionalist position; people are even more interested in the work of the Society. The excommunications, even though we have always said they were unfounded, tended to keep people away, to frighten them. Now it is clear that more people want to know about the Tridentine Mass but also about our position regarding the doctrine.

3) MJM: And this trend is widespread even outside of the U.S., say in your native France, for example? 

Father Rostand: Bishop Fellay, who travels all around the world, was saying recently, as he was visiting the U.S. District, that this growth of the Society is noticeable everywhere in the world. It is to the point that we cannot cope with the need for expansion; we have more work than we can do. Despite the good number of ordinations, we would need many more priests to satisfy all the needs. The same reaction is visible throughout the world, to different degrees, but globally it is the same. In a way it seems contradictory, perhaps, but the Society might have feared a decrease in the wake of the motu proprio since our own faithful would have the possibility to go to other churches to find the Latin Mass. But in fact, it is the contrary that we see. The more the motu proprio is granted, the more people come also to us.

Speaking about France, it is clear that the bishops are very much opposed to the application of the motu proprio. They do whatever they can to stop it. I have just read that a survey was recently taken in Paris: More than 34 percent of the practicing Catholics would like to attend a Tridentine Mass every Sunday – more than a third of the actual practicing Novus Ordo Catholics of Paris. However, if you ask the Archdiocese or Cardinal Vingt-Trois, there is no demand, no need! This is a good example of the resistance against the motu proprio in France.

On the other hand, the Society of St. Pius X has noticed sympathy from some diocesan priests in the past years. If the bishops are still very resentful against anything traditional, their clergy, or at least some of them, are no longer of the same mind.

For several years now, the Society’s District of France has been mailing a letter to all priests in France. The purpose of this letter is to express and explain to the clergy the positions of the Society, and it has in fact created a real interest in the Society, helping to make our existence and position more known. Of course, you can imagine that this type of letter provokes all kind of reactions, not all positive, and the priest of the Society in charge of publishing this letter receives quite a few nasty letters, but he receives also very interesting letters of support and gratitude. In general over the years it has made our position on the crisis in the Church more known and a little more accepted.

Obviously, the Motu Proprio and the lifting of the “excommunications” has strengthened and incited more attention from these priests.

4) MJM: The prevailing opinion has long been that the traditional Catholic movement is strongest in France. Do you agree?

Father Rostand: The Traditionalist reaction in France was strong from the beginning, thanks to Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and a few priests like Mgr. Ducaud Bourget in Paris. Archbishop Lefebvre was already fairly well known in France. Even before Vatican II he had given his support to a lay organization that was resisting the spirit of novelties and changes of all sorts. That has helped a lot in the growth and development of the Society in France. France is still today the biggest district of the Society of Saint Pius X in number of priests and faithful. There are now over one hundred and fifty priests and  many churches and chapels all over the country.  But, you know, the second district of the Society in terms of numbers is the U.S., which is I believe the most rapidly growing district of the Society and the most promising in number of vocations.

5) MJM: Given the vindication that Summorum Pontificum inadvertently provided the Archbishop, at least in terms of his long-held contention that the traditional Mass had never been abrogated, something the Holy Father now corroborates—would you say that history may soon begin to view the Archbishop as a champion of the Faith rather than a “rebel”?

Father Rostand: I have no doubt about what history will say regarding the fight of Archbishop Lefebvre and the Priestly Society he founded. One day he will be recognized as the “champion of the Faith”, the “Saint Athanasius” of the 20th century. History has already accepted the fact that the refusal of Archbishop Lefebvre to accept the New Mass has saved the Mass. The Tridentine Mass is a treasure which the Catholic Church would have lost if the Archbishop had not stood up against the destruction of the liturgy.

The motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum” comes more than 40 years after the suspension of 1976 and states precisely what Archbishop Lefebvre had always maintained—that all priests have the right to celebrate the Latin Mass because it was never abrogated. This is the very contention over which Archbishop Lefebvre was condemned, and, when Rome finally conceded that the Latin Mass had never been abrogated, it was an implicit acknowledgment that the condemnations of the Archbishop were unjust.

In addition, in founding the Society of Saint Pius X and in consecrating the four Bishops in 1988, Mgr. Lefebvre also saved the Catholic priesthood. One day this will be accepted and hailed by the Church. I even believe that the Consecration of the four bishops will be seen in the future as a heroic act of Faith. The lifting of the excommunications is a first step in that direction.

Furthermore, some criticisms of Vatican II have begun to be expressed in the Church and even at the Vatican, criticisms that were only heard amongst Tradition up until very recently. This is new.  You have, for example, the recent book of the Italian Monsignor Brunero Gherardini.

It seems that the debate on Vatican II is getting started; at least it becomes possible to ask questions. This is definitely new. I am convinced that in the future we will see more and more of that. And one day, the positions of the Archbishop will be recognized as truly Catholic, his key doctrinal answers on Ecumenism, Religious Liberty, Collegiality – to name only the main ones – will be acknowledged as the right solutions to the crisis in the Church.

When the Truth has found its normal place in Rome, when the Faith shines again, then, I truly believe, the courage and heroism of Archbishop Lefebvre will be acknowledged and he declared a champion of the Faith. Are we already there? Not yet. I do not know when that will come. There are a few signs leading to that, but we are far from there. Nevertheless, it will one day be.

6) MJM: I understand there is an initiative underway for the cause of Archbishop Lefebvre. Is it possible, in your opinion, that we may live to see the day when the Church will recognize the “schismatic” “extremist” as SAINT Marcel Lefebvre?

Father Rostand: It is difficult to know if we will live to see his canonization, but we surely pray for that. Nonetheless, I have no doubt that he will be recognized as a Saint one day. Some may say, “Oh Father, you seem very confident,” and I am. One just needs to look at the history of the Church. Throughout history, the Church has needed some reformation, and especially in times of crisis, the Good Lord has given rise to a saint to bring forward what was necessary. I cannot believe that God would have left us without a leader in this terrible time of crisis. A man that could make the link between the splendor of the Catholic Church before Vatican II and this time of “eclipse” of the Church, to use the word of Our Lady of La Salette. Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was the light, the leader, the saint the Church needed following Vatican II.

7) MJM: I understand that a major documentary on the life of Archbishop Lefebvre is currently in production. When will this film be released, and what is the objective of this project?

Father Rostand: That is correct, the Society of Saint Pius X is working on a documentary film on the life of the Archbishop. The initiative was undertaken by the French District of the Society. Being aware of a similar project here in the United States, I was very glad to offer the collaboration of the U.S. District, thanks to the assistance of a group of lay people. Bishop Fellay has given his blessing for such a project; he has also kindly opened the archives of the Society for a more wide-ranging production.

The U.S. District has two objectives: first, to gather all available archival materials relative to the visits of Archbishop Lefebvre to the United States. We invite the faithful to share with us any materials they have. We are particularly interested in audio and video recordings, and photographs; we also welcome written articles, newspaper clippings, taped sermons and the like. Copies or originals are welcomed, and we will return those to the owners after making copies. These archival materials may be sent to:

Society of Saint Pius X

Regina Coeli House

11485 N. Farley Road

Platte City, MO – 64079

 info@sspx.org  - Fax:      816-753-3560 - Phone:  816-753-0073

Our second goal at this point is to raise some funds to help with the costs of producing this film. In the interim, a group of lay benefactors (The Benefactors Committee) has offered to organize some fundraising programs for that purpose. All funds raised by them will be used to produce this important documentary on the life of our founder. Donors may contact them at the following:

The Benefactor Committee -

Archbishop Lefebvre The Movie - 6145 W. Byron St. -

Chicago, IL - 60634

or visit their website at: http://www.lefebvrethemovie.org/

I am very grateful to anyone who can help with these two first goals—the gathering of information as well as financial assistance. No doubt, such a documentary will help to make the Archbishop more known, while highlighting the legacy of doctrinal faithfulness to the teaching of the Catholic Church he handed over to us. Once again, thank you for helping this work of memory for the next generations.

8) MJM: Anyone who has ever read Archbishop Lefebvre’s own words knows that the last thing he ever wanted was any kind of separation between his Society and Rome.  Now, 20 years after his death there’s a possibility that separation may be healed, as well it should be since it was not brought on by any desire on his part but rather by the crisis in the Church itself. Can you tell us anything more about the talks between the SSPX leadership and the Vatican?

Father Rostand: Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was a Roman Catholic bishop. He was formed in Rome; he took his Seminary studies there; he worked all his life for Rome, to the highest levels of the Church—as Archbishop of Dakar, for example, or as Apostolic Delegate for Pope Pius XII. His attachment to Rome, to the Holy See, is undeniable, and he suffered a great deal from the crisis in the Church.

On many occasions—despite his position on the crisis, his opposition to the modernist reforms, even his disagreements with the Popes—he made it clear that he never wanted to separate himself nor his Society from the Catholic Church, from Rome, from the Pope. He wanted to keep a house of formation near Rome so that the seminarians could spend some time in Rome, to learn to know Rome and to love the Eternal City. That was very dear to his heart. He used to say that between Rome and the Holy Land his first choice and predilection was Rome.

As evidenced in his famous declaration of 1974, which is a profession of Faith and of Love in Rome. If he made a distinction between the Traditional and Eternal Rome and the modernist Rome, it is because he refused to break away from Rome. That is why also in the conferences given by the Archbishop at Econe, even during the most heated periods, we can see his attachment to Rome and to the Pope… That is why the Archbishop never refused any opportunity to go to Rome. He saw it ever as his duty, to loyally witness to the Faith.

It is in this same spirit that the Society of Saint Pius X is currently answering the call from the Pope to enter into discussions in Rome. By our presence at these talks, we demonstrate our attachment to the Eternal Rome and we witness to the Faith.

Bishop Fellay, General Superior of the Society of Saint Pius X, has revealed that the Commission is being lead by Bishop de Galarreta and also includes Father de Jorna and Father Gleize, respectively rector and professor at Econe, as well as Father de La Rocque, prior in France. To avoid any kind of pressure, it is the will of Rome as well as of the Society to keep these discussions private. Nevertheless, Bishop de Galarreta has given some precisions last December 19 at La Reja in Argentina. He announced that the reference in these discussions is the Magisterium before Vatican II. This is a great step forward, you know. Until now, the only reference was Vatican II. You could not get out of that—it was always Vatican II judged by Vatican II. This is the first time Rome has accepted to look into Vatican II in light of the previous teachings of the Church.

Bishop de Galarreta also explained the topics that will be discussed—essentially the Mass and the liturgical reform, Ecumenism, Religious Liberty, the relations between the Church and State, collegiality and so on. As you can see, the main issues of the crisis in the Church will be addressed in the light and authority of the Magisterium prior to Vatican II. What an opportunity to witness the true Faith!

The discussions, therefore, are not on a canonical level, not for a “recognition” of the Society of Saint Pius X, and not part of any sort of “negotiations.”

MJM: And do you believe a “state of necessity” still exists in the Church?

Father Rostand: You pose an excellent question, once again, because some say that, since the motu proprio, there is no longer a “state of necessity” and it thus becomes impossible to justify the “non canonical” status of the Society of Saint Pius X. The question is important because the validity of certain sacraments is at stake.

We have always maintained that there is, in the Church today, a “state of necessity”. Souls have the right to receive the necessary aids for salvation, especially in doctrine and receiving the sacraments.  But today some do not have access to these while others may but only with huge difficulties. What souls need first for their salvation is the transmission of the Faith, the protection of their Faith. It is very clear to me that despite the fact that the Latin Mass is more available today, there is still a crisis in the Church—a  crisis which is even deeper than we realize, a crisis which is essentially doctrinal, a crisis in the teaching of the Faith.

In other words, the novelties of the New Mass are just the visible side of the crisis, the tip of the iceberg, if you will. What is more difficult to see, perhaps, and much more important is that the disaster that has occurred in the Church over the past forty years is due to questions of Faith – a departure from the Catholic teaching of the Faith, ecumenism being one of the most obvious examples.

Let me take an example. Do you think the state of urgency ceases in a building in flames just because you have called the fire department? Well, the Pope has taken some steps; he seems to be trying to bring the firemen to stop the flames but the fire is still there. So, yes, the crisis in the Church is still there. It is still hard to obtain the traditional sacraments, it is even more difficult to receive proper teaching of the Faith, and it is impossible to have a Catholic understanding of the main issues brought up by Vatican II. The latest visit of Pope Benedict XVI to the synagogue in Rome is another argument in favor of a real state of necessity in the Church.

Are these most essential questions resolved? Definitely not. The state of necessity still exists.

9) MJM: I noticed recently that Der Spiegel and other far-Left media outlets are still trying to use Bishop Williamson’s opinions on the Holocaust as the “big stick” against rapprochement, the restoration of Catholic Tradition, and, by extension, the Holy Father. Do you believe Bishop Williamson’s opinions are being exploited by the enemies of Tradition to further marginalize and perhaps even criminalize the SSPX?

Father Rostand: This is indeed the easiest weapon they can use against the Society, against Tradition. It is amazing to see how each time there are any steps made towards Tradition, this issue is brought back into the media limelight.

From a more general standpoint, we must remember that most of the media work with the feelings of people, using emotions to create some types of dialectics. The goal might be just to make the news but it provokes also tensions or divisions.

It is clear that the enemies of Tradition are dreaming of dividing us. Nonetheless, the most efficient answer to the Hegelian dialectic, most of the time, is silence, not adding oil to the fire and avoiding the dialectical division that is pushed.

10) MJM: How would you explain the Holy Father’s recent ecumenical initiatives (e.g., the visit to Rome’s Synagogue and the Lutheran church) in light of his dramatic liturgical reforms and, for that matter, his lifting of the excommunications of the SSPX bishops?  On the one hand the Holy Father seems to have obvious traditional leanings and certainly a genuine concern for the loss of Catholic identity throughout the world, while on the other he seems committed to some of the very novelties that led to a universal loss of Faith and Catholic identity in the first place.

Father Rostand: Here also we find ourselves confronting the “state of necessity” in the Church. On one hand, the Pope is making some important steps moving in the direction of a restoration of the Church. On the other hand, there is no sign of discarding the errors of Vatican II. Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the Society of Saint Pius X, then as well as today, maintained that these ecumenical initiatives are scandalous to the Church, leading souls away from the Faith. Objectively speaking, they lack charity towards those who are in error.  They lead Catholics to further confusion and keep in “good conscience” those who are outside the true Faith.

How can we explain that contradiction? There are some elements of an answer in the philosophical background of the Pope and in the nature of the modernist heresies. But these are only elements. The answer is the same that Archbishop Lefebvre gave on similar occasions. We are in the presence of a mystery – the mystery of the Church, a Church that has the promises of Eternal Life, and a Church that is made of human beings. We continue to maintain our position. We rejoice for any means that help bring back the Faith to the Church; but we weep over and must refuse what is contrary to the eternal teaching of the Church.

11) MJM: Last question: Now that the question of an alleged SSPX “schism” has been resolved even by the Vatican itself (i.e., I personally asked Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos in June of 2008 if the SSPX is in schism.  His response was this: “No, there isn’t a schism! They have an ‘irregular standing.”), the excommunications have been lifted, and the Holy See is in talks with the SSPX—what do you say to those of us who are still praying that a “deal” between the Vatican and the SSPX not be struck prematurely or in any way based on unjust compromise?

Father Rostand: As I mentioned earlier, the discussions with Rome are not to “make a deal”. We need to stop the nonsense that the Society of Saint Pius X is poised to compromise and jump into a “Campos deal”. I say nonsense not because it could not happen – of course, a misstep is always possible – but because if the goal of the Society was merely to obtain recognition or “approval”, that could have happened long before now. Cardinal Hoyos pushed in that direction for years while he was the president of the Ecclesia Dei Commission. Clearly, Bishop Fellay who has been General Superior of the Society of St. Pius X for more than 15 years, could have accepted that if that was what he wanted.

Our goal, our objective, is the good of the Church, and the Society has always put the good of the Church above its own personal good. I would like to add here that in the Society of St. Pius X right up to the top, we are very well aware of what is going on in the dioceses and of what the bishops are doing. We see how they exercise their power to stop the motu proprio from being implemented, to restrain the influence of what we call the “Traditionalists”, including those who have already compromised with Rome.

The sad examples of all those who have made a “deal” with Rome on a canonical level, without resolving the doctrinal issues first—are daily lessons for us. You have the case of what just recently happened in Toronto, Canada. I do not have the details of why the Fraternity of Saint Peter has been forced to stop its apostolate there. If the information I have received is correct, Bishop Thomas Collins did not appreciate that the Fraternity had not obeyed his order to distribute communion in the hand because of the H1N1 flu virus. Whatever the reasons are, we see on many occasions that the bishops are putting obstacles to the Latin Mass, and even more so to the practice and teaching of anything Traditional. They are using their power to obstruct Tradition. Being aware of this, it would be suicide for us not to have a strong and efficient support from Rome to face the bishops. And I believe we are not there at this point.

12) MJM: Still, the Fraternity priests in Calgary and Toronto did the right thing: Rather than compromise or be forced to offer Communion in the hand they simply closed the doors of their chapel, and, very soon thereafter, were allowed to reopen and distribute Communion on the tongue as always.  So, my question is this:  The approved traditional orders are offering the traditional Mass and Sacraments to tens of thousands of Catholics who would otherwise never set foot in a chapel operated by the SSPX. At the same time, the SSPX (now cleared of the charge of schism by the Vatican itself) continues to offer the Sacraments to another million souls, while presenting to the Holy Father the doctrinal case against Modernism’s intrusion into the heart and bosom of the Church. This situation—what we Americans might call a “good cop, bad cop” scenario—seems to be benefitting the entire Church while spiritually sustaining countless souls on both sides of the “approved” aisle.  Is it wrong for us to see God’s will in all of this and to hope nothing untoward disrupts the balance?

Father Rostand: I do not think we can look at the Church or the situation of the Church, as politics – as a delicate balance between influences from extremists, the modernists on one side and Traditionalists on the other. The real question, so to speak, is, “what is the cancer, the sickness in the Church? What is the remedy?” There is no question about the sickness: it is the modernist ideas and pressure. The treatment is purification, by returning to the true teaching of the Apostles, returning to the Tradition of the Catholic Church. This is what we must not jeopardize, dilute, or betray. Historically, only the demanding line of Archbishop Lefebvre of a complete confession of the Faith, which includes the right to denounce the errors, even against the highest authorities of the Church, has been able to change Rome’s line. Each step that Rome has conceded to release the Tridentine Mass or towards Tradition has been an answer to Archbishop Lefebvre’s position of complete steadfastness. It is a common thing today to admit that whatever has been granted towards Tradition is thanks to the Archbishop. I have heard “Ecclesia Dei” priests saying that and they are absolutely right on this. However, I think it is somewhat too easy to say that. Let me ask another question? How powerful would be Tradition today if all the spiritual sons of Archbishop had followed his doctrinal firmness? Can we imagine how much more Rome may have taken steps towards this return?

At least, the past lessons teach us that the real approach in order that Rome may come back to Tradition is an authentic fidelity not only to the Mass but to the whole doctrine taught in the Mass. Thus, what has obtained the freedom for the Mass can also obtain the restoration of the Catholic teaching by the Church authorities. Therefore, I would invite your readers to pray for the intention that the talks may help purify the Church and help Rome to realize what has happened over the last 40 years.

13) MJM: Yes, indeed.  And I would  invite our readers to pray for all priests in the world today who have kept the Faith despite the revolution. As the case of the FSSP priests in Toronto illustrates, despite often difficult situations some diocesan and Ecclesia Dei priests find themselves in “enemy territory” attempting to provide the Traditional Mass and Sacraments to souls who might otherwise have lived and died completely ignorant of them. As for all traditional priests in one priestly fraternity? I’m a pheasant hunter, Father. When one rooster gets up out of the grass it’s hard to miss him.  When several roosters and a hen get up at once, it’s impossible to get them all. 

I know I said ‘last question’ several questions ago, but can I presume upon your patience for just one more: What impact on all of this can we expect to see if and when the Holy Father consecrates Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary?

Father Rostand: This question could be a full interview by itself as the apparitions at Fatima are absolutely and deeply linked to the situation of the Church. We know that Our Lady promised the consecration of Russia will be done, late or too late – but it will be done. The effect of the consecration will be the triumph of the Immaculate Heart. How is this possible? How will it come about? Who knows? But it will. Bishop Fellay’s call for a Rosary Crusade for this intention fits into the resolving of the crisis in the Church. Our Lady of Fatima, the Immaculate Heart of Mary is and will be involved, if I may say so, in the solution. Our hope is that our poor prayers will be heard, and that the outcome of this Rosary Crusade will be as dramatic, as spectacular, as the two previous Crusades were. Why not?

14) MJM:  Many thanks, Father.  Please be assured of our prayers for your continued success as well as our gratitude to you and all the priests and bishops of the SSPX for their courageous dedication to the Restoration of all things in Christ in a world clearly at war with Him.

Father Rostand: Thank you! And thank you especially for your prayers. We are indeed at war. Our Lord Jesus Christ Our King must reign and indeed, He reigns. As Cardinal Pie would say, Our Lord always reigns, when it is not by the benefit of His presence, it is by the chaos brought by His absence. In front of a world that refuses God, a world that does whatever it can to eradicate Christendom from this earth, no one must forget that Our Lord has already “overcome the world” and, as Saint John puts it “this is the victory which overcometh the world: Our Faith”.

Submit a Comment

 

Comments:
 

Dear Mr Matt,
 
The interview with Fr Rostand gives all of us Traditional Catholics great hope for the Restoration of the True Faith to Rome and throughout the Catholic Church.
 
It is indeed encouraging to know that there has been a resurgence in the numbers attending SSPX Mass Centres following the lifting of the Excommunications and the earlier announcement by Pope Benedict XVI on 7/7/7 that the Traditional Latin Mass has never been abrogated.
 
I congratulate you in placing this interview Online so that Traditional Catholics scattered around the world can share the hope that the Interview will provide.
 
I also congratulate you for inviting comments with regard the Interview and encourage you to continue to do so with respect to all future articles.
 
As the Manager of the http://www.catholicapologetics.info website I am pleased to inform you that there is a link on that website to your great online newspaper which you can find under 'Catholic Magazines'.
 
Yours in Christ
Lawrence (aka Laurie) Myers

Sydney, Australia
email:
lmyers3@bigpond.com

 

Dear Sir,

 

A correction to. It was in Calgary, not Toronto that the FSSP did not celebrate the Mass during the H1N1.  It was not their decision, they were suspended by the Bishop because they refused to distribute communion in the hand.  In Toronto, the FSSP only distributed communion on the tongue; there is no proof that this is why they left.

 

David Anthony Domet

Toronto

www.voxcantor.blogspot.com

     
 
   
 
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